How We Want To Be Viewed
The way I dress is based on how I want people to view me:Black and earings = gothic
Sporty clothes = tomboy
Or is it just what I was in the mood of wearing? (my favorite comfy sweater happens to be tie dye, does that make me a hippie?)
I think we should dress to have respect for ourselves, rather than try to garner the respect of others. Whatever that entails. (Age 21)
Then is that not dressing “fake”, because I would not normally dress this way, but because I have respect for “them” I will...?
I think it's fine to dress in a respectful manner when going to a place that generally values more modest dress. I don't view that as being fake, because you are acting in accordance with your values- the value of respecting others. (22)
But the people viewing you or meeting you will think that this is how you always dress...which could be a lie. so in essence you are being "fake" to the people around you and who preseve you as something you are not.
I don't think it's fake; what is it their business if they assume I always dress this way? Someone who sees me running to catch a train, do I need to inform them that I don't usually go running, I'm not the exercise type, I was really only just running so I wouldn't miss my way to work?
I think it depends on your intention. If my intention is to be fake, that is my problem. If my intentions are to be respectful, if I am doing the right thing l'shaim shamayim, I don't think it should matter as much how others perceive it. If we know for ourselves we are doing the right thing we can't run around worrying about what everyone will think. Maybe we should be more concerned about that when we are doing the wrong thing.
I heard an example in a shiur recently by Rabbi Fohrman that I think illustrates this principle on a broader scale. To paraphrase: when one does the right thing, it may often bring him honor but sometimes it may not. Regarding the story of Yehuda and Tamar in parshat Vayeshev: When Tamar sent Yehuda the signs he had given her (staff, cloack, ring) right before she was about to be killed, he could have easily just said that he does not recognize them, and allow her to be sent to her death. Rather, he states that she is more righteous than he, and confesses what has been done. This honorable act, though what may have been correct in the situation, surely was not bringing him honor from his community.
(Age 22)
And what about those who dress in a way that is not modest...they have their reasons, they may have righteous intentions as well...just like someone dress modestly may be doing it for the wrong reason. Do we, the Jewish people, believe that one should dress according to one's own intentions? Do we have our own "lines" we don't cross or do we have a general "line" given to us by Gd?I think it's an interplay of both elements; I recently heard a statement that I thought was very poignant: the Torah is an objective standard that we apply subjectively. So I think it comes down to how do we take this concept of modesty, and based on the Torah, Rabbis, and ourselves, weave it into our framework.
Also regarding your statement that someone who dresses in a way that is not modest may have righteous intentions: surely, if it is something they are working on, or think they are doing correctly... but otherwise...What is the righteous intention in not dressing modestly? (Age 22)
If we use the Torah in a subjective manner then we might mis-use it, even with the guide of a Rabbi, since there are many Rabbis out there.What do you mean by mis-use it? Is there one way to interpret the Torah? And if not- what determines the line between which ways are appropriate, as well as which ways fall "outside the box"? - I've been trying to find insight into this question for a while... if you have anything, that would be great!
(Age 22)
Our Rabbis today and the Rabbis of the past are meant to guide us and determine this "line". They can do so because their whole life (supposedly) is focused on learning and understanding the Torah. They live in this world, so they understand the current environment and temptations, but they know what Hashem wants, prescribed for us. Therefore, they are the ones who determine the "line" not to cross. We need an outsider, other then ourselves, to tell us rite from wrong, because we are blinded by our own temptations, desires and fears. It's like asking your mom for advice on something- She's older, wiser, been there and back, so she's perfect! So too, our Rabbis have been there and back PLUS their whole essence is immersed in the Torah and fulfilling G-D's will, so they are trying to help us be good and NOT trying to take advantage of us. But back to the discussion at hand, if we want people to view us a certain way then we must act accordingly, and acting the part comes with dressing for the part as well. I agree. I think that your statements about Rabbis are reflective of what a Rabbi should be, and hopefully IS, in the majority of cases. A lot of disagreement and negative sentiment comes from those who have had experiences with Rabbis who have not lived up to that paradigm and have played a part in pushing others away. May all of us be able to, despite our experiences, be able to view situations with a clear mind and still have trust in the Rabbinic figures that lead us today. And coming back to the topic at hand as well, :) , I second your thought that it is in our hands how we want to portray ourselves to the world- and that that certainly, if not mostly, comes from how we dress.
There are many people, however, that are pushed away by the hypocrisy they see amongst those who dress very modestly but act rudely to those around them. Therefore I think that the people who observe these 'modest' people often may not want to dress modestly having nothing to do with modesty itself, but rather because they do not want to be grouped together with "the type of person that is dressed so modestly but acts so rudely". I've noticed that this phenomenon is fairly prevalent. It suggests that our dress may be influenced by more variables than just simply whether we think it is right to cover ourselves up. Does it give some responsibility to the girls who do dress modestly to create a good name for what it means to be modest? What do you think? (Age 22, Hilana)
I think it gives everyone a responsibility to judge others favorably and not group someone according to how they dress..."oh she is wearing THAT so she must be like THEM"
True. Note to myself: Others- including those who are unlike me and have different ideas :) (Age 23, Hilana)
Sporty clothes = tomboy
Or is it just what I was in the mood of wearing? (my favorite comfy sweater happens to be tie dye, does that make me a hippie?)
I think we should dress to have respect for ourselves, rather than try to garner the respect of others. Whatever that entails. (Age 21)
Then is that not dressing “fake”, because I would not normally dress this way, but because I have respect for “them” I will...?
I think it's fine to dress in a respectful manner when going to a place that generally values more modest dress. I don't view that as being fake, because you are acting in accordance with your values- the value of respecting others. (22)
But the people viewing you or meeting you will think that this is how you always dress...which could be a lie. so in essence you are being "fake" to the people around you and who preseve you as something you are not.
I don't think it's fake; what is it their business if they assume I always dress this way? Someone who sees me running to catch a train, do I need to inform them that I don't usually go running, I'm not the exercise type, I was really only just running so I wouldn't miss my way to work?
I think it depends on your intention. If my intention is to be fake, that is my problem. If my intentions are to be respectful, if I am doing the right thing l'shaim shamayim, I don't think it should matter as much how others perceive it. If we know for ourselves we are doing the right thing we can't run around worrying about what everyone will think. Maybe we should be more concerned about that when we are doing the wrong thing.
I heard an example in a shiur recently by Rabbi Fohrman that I think illustrates this principle on a broader scale. To paraphrase: when one does the right thing, it may often bring him honor but sometimes it may not. Regarding the story of Yehuda and Tamar in parshat Vayeshev: When Tamar sent Yehuda the signs he had given her (staff, cloack, ring) right before she was about to be killed, he could have easily just said that he does not recognize them, and allow her to be sent to her death. Rather, he states that she is more righteous than he, and confesses what has been done. This honorable act, though what may have been correct in the situation, surely was not bringing him honor from his community.
(Age 22)
And what about those who dress in a way that is not modest...they have their reasons, they may have righteous intentions as well...just like someone dress modestly may be doing it for the wrong reason. Do we, the Jewish people, believe that one should dress according to one's own intentions? Do we have our own "lines" we don't cross or do we have a general "line" given to us by Gd?I think it's an interplay of both elements; I recently heard a statement that I thought was very poignant: the Torah is an objective standard that we apply subjectively. So I think it comes down to how do we take this concept of modesty, and based on the Torah, Rabbis, and ourselves, weave it into our framework.
Also regarding your statement that someone who dresses in a way that is not modest may have righteous intentions: surely, if it is something they are working on, or think they are doing correctly... but otherwise...What is the righteous intention in not dressing modestly? (Age 22)
If we use the Torah in a subjective manner then we might mis-use it, even with the guide of a Rabbi, since there are many Rabbis out there.What do you mean by mis-use it? Is there one way to interpret the Torah? And if not- what determines the line between which ways are appropriate, as well as which ways fall "outside the box"? - I've been trying to find insight into this question for a while... if you have anything, that would be great!
(Age 22)
Our Rabbis today and the Rabbis of the past are meant to guide us and determine this "line". They can do so because their whole life (supposedly) is focused on learning and understanding the Torah. They live in this world, so they understand the current environment and temptations, but they know what Hashem wants, prescribed for us. Therefore, they are the ones who determine the "line" not to cross. We need an outsider, other then ourselves, to tell us rite from wrong, because we are blinded by our own temptations, desires and fears. It's like asking your mom for advice on something- She's older, wiser, been there and back, so she's perfect! So too, our Rabbis have been there and back PLUS their whole essence is immersed in the Torah and fulfilling G-D's will, so they are trying to help us be good and NOT trying to take advantage of us. But back to the discussion at hand, if we want people to view us a certain way then we must act accordingly, and acting the part comes with dressing for the part as well. I agree. I think that your statements about Rabbis are reflective of what a Rabbi should be, and hopefully IS, in the majority of cases. A lot of disagreement and negative sentiment comes from those who have had experiences with Rabbis who have not lived up to that paradigm and have played a part in pushing others away. May all of us be able to, despite our experiences, be able to view situations with a clear mind and still have trust in the Rabbinic figures that lead us today. And coming back to the topic at hand as well, :) , I second your thought that it is in our hands how we want to portray ourselves to the world- and that that certainly, if not mostly, comes from how we dress.
There are many people, however, that are pushed away by the hypocrisy they see amongst those who dress very modestly but act rudely to those around them. Therefore I think that the people who observe these 'modest' people often may not want to dress modestly having nothing to do with modesty itself, but rather because they do not want to be grouped together with "the type of person that is dressed so modestly but acts so rudely". I've noticed that this phenomenon is fairly prevalent. It suggests that our dress may be influenced by more variables than just simply whether we think it is right to cover ourselves up. Does it give some responsibility to the girls who do dress modestly to create a good name for what it means to be modest? What do you think? (Age 22, Hilana)
I think it gives everyone a responsibility to judge others favorably and not group someone according to how they dress..."oh she is wearing THAT so she must be like THEM"
True. Note to myself: Others- including those who are unlike me and have different ideas :) (Age 23, Hilana)