Bikinis At Shul
I would never wear a bikini to work or shul...just at the beach where the same men and kids are present...??
I wear a bathing suit on the beach because that is what one wears on the beach...everyone wears a bathing suit. It’s not like those same men and kids are fully dressed and I’m the only one who’s half-naked. We all are. And I would never wear a bikini to work or to shul because that would be completely inappropriate for that setting. We all have different masks that we wear in different environments, and clothing is a huge part of that persona. For example, I dress differently for school and for shul because in one setting I am my own person, but in the other everyone knows my family so I have to act in a way that won’t bring shame to my parents. (I know that sounds very corny, but it’s true. All young people are expected to behave themselves so as not to embarrass their families.) I wear mini-skirts in my everyday life, but I would never wear one to a job interview because that would be inappropriate. But a bikini on the beach is socially acceptable so I am not uncomfortable wearing one in that setting. (Age 21)
Would it make a difference if everyone at the beach wearing bathing suits were fat and ugly and you were the only good looking one?
No, it wouldn’t make a difference at all. The point isn’t if I look good or not, the point is that it’s socially acceptable therefore not uncomfortable.
Why would you not wear mini-skirts to a job interview? Why then would you wear one to school?
School is not the same setting as a job interview. A job interview is a specific opportunity to make an impression and obtain a position at the company; I’m not trying to get a job while I’m at school. If it’s a relaxed environment at the office, then I will wear mini-skirts after I have obtained the job.
Quick story that explains what I’m talking about: at my current office, I saw a man come in for an interview in nice slacks, button down shirt and a tie. My office is extremely casual; my boss wears jeans every day. But my co-worker who interviewed this guy told me later that he is definitely not going to give him the job because the guy wasn’t wearing a suit. He was dressed completely appropriately for an office, but he just wasn’t in a suit. When I pointed out that my co-worker was wearing shorts and a t-shirt, he replied “I have a job. He doesn’t. You wear a suit to a job interview.” So it doesn’t matter if I like mini-skirts; you have to make a good impression at a job interview and dressing appropriately for an office is part of that.
I hear that....it is like any interview...Israel school interviews they all know that is not how we normally dress and we are just dressing the part to get the “job” but why is that considered acceptable?
I can’t tell you why it’s considered acceptable, only that society insists that we do it. It’s simply become appropriate in both our secular and religious cultures. Perhaps it is different in other parts of the world, but that’s how it is in Western societies.
Maybe it’s because they want to see what sort of effort we are putting in to show what we want to become. A girl who doesn’t ever want to cover her legs with stockings lets say is not likely to dress up in them to impress a school that has a hashkafa she is not interested in. But when a girl comes dressed a certain way for an israel interview, maybe it is an expression of her hope to grow, an indicator of maybe how she wants to be a few years down the road. Food for thought. (Age 21)
Historians have noted that among Arian Germans only, Natzies were “very advanced” ethically in that ideologies such as women’s rights already existed more so than in other countries, however in Natzie Germany, it was socially acceptable to kill Jews, Blacks, Jypsies, and other minority groups. In every society and generation socially acceptable practices drastically change which screams out the enormous need for people to follow an ethical code that is fixed and un-wavering in the face of changing or even criminal societies. Only a code of laws given to us by G-od can provide such un-subjective ethical stability. Therefore modesty for a religious woman has absolutely nothing to do with social norms but has to do with the laws that were passed down to us from generation to generation all the way back from Moses who received a code of laws from G-d called the Torah. This principle goes beyond modesty and holds true in all areas of life, instructing us how to be ethical people. If a person always allowed his own judment or that of society to dictate to himself what is acceptable, then he is not following a fixed ethical code, and as a result principles will change from one setting to the next, or from one generation to the next. In contrast, when following the ethical code that is taught from Jewish Torah sources, then the laws of modesty are more stead-fast and un-wavering. A woman who complys by the latter and as a result looks different than everybody else on the beach (because she’s dressed in the same long sleeves and long skirt that she would wear on a street) should be proud of herself because 1. She will be rewarded for adhering to the laws of modesty of the Torah especially where it is harder to do so. G-od does not let any righteous act go un-rewarded. 2. She knows she is being consistent and following the commandments of G-od which by definition allow for a more spiritual existance here on earth, and allows us to get closer to G-od and to figuring out our mission. 3.She is helping to make the world a better place and following holy laws intended to prevent unsolicited sex. 4. By covering her body she is conveying the message that she is more than just a body, i.e. that she has a soul underneith, a small piece of G-odliness. (Age 27)
Nicely said, but what about certain issues that were never addressed because they were not invented yet: “jeggings”, colors besides red, nailpolish, high heels, KiKiRiKis, these issues are relevent only to our generation, just like I am sure previous generations had their issues (hair coverings, short sleeves, etc.). These issues need to be addressed by rabbis of the modern world today, but also by women themselves, I believe, because women are the ones dressing in such a fashion. Yes, we get a reward for listenting and keeping with our ethical codes, but I also believe, Hashem would want us dressing this way for our own reasons, making it more personal- and this way, more women are able to keep to the laws better. You can see that today’s generation is drastically different than previous ones and that is because we are looking to answer the “why”. As you can also see, many Jews are no longer keeping laws of Judaism, because “their mommy told them so”, they need to know why. So I am asking, reward aside, why do we have these laws? Does Hashem really care how we dress? what about how we act when we are dressed that way...see stories in Your Thoughts and Say What??
Interesting point on the idea of hair coverings, I learned in class that when sheitels first came around, they were considered inappropriate in many groups, but they later ended up gaining acceptance. It’s difficult because there is often a faint line between halacha and custom...
If you are concerned about your parents’ shame in shul then shouldn’t we care about our Father in Heaven’s shame? Or does He not care about the way we dress...maybe He only cares about how we speak and act...is the way we dress part of the way we act?
I am probably not the best person to talk about this with because although I understand what you’re saying, I personally don’t care as much as you do. I’m a firm believer in putting people before G-d (and that G-d prefers it that way), so I concern myself with bringing honor to my family before bringing it to Him. I have complete respect for those who disagree with me and I’m not trying to offend anyone who does. I simply just want to explain my thought processes.
I agree that the way we dress is part of the way we act and that true modesty involves all aspects of our actions. Someone posted a story a little further down that actually happened to me and I think it demonstrates my points here: in my first semester at college, I took a class with two girls who had just come back from seminary. I didn’t know them from before college but befriended them because we Jews tend to stick together. One day, I overheard them talking to two boys in the class, one of whom it seemed had grown up religious but was not any more and the other was half-Jewish. I say I overheard them, but they were talking so loudly it was impossible not to; the whole class heard them loud and clear. The things they were saying were so horrible, things that make sense to someone who understands our religion and culture but to an outsider (like most of our classmates) are extremely offensive. They kept going on and on and it was awful. I was wearing a knee-length skirt that day and I was so embarrassed that I might be associated with these incredibly naive and offensive girls, that I pushed my skirt between my legs so it looked like I was wearing pants. That day, I would have rather been called a slut by those girls than a Jew by the rest of my class. They made me so embarrassed to be Jewish and they made such a chillul Hashem. That is why I believe that modesty and bringing respect and honor to G-d is so much more than simply what you’re wearing.
I remember when you told me that story and I definitely see your point regarding how much of a Chillul Hashem can be made when people attempt to “put G-d before people”. It hurts me so much as well when I see people behaving in that manner, and I really think it is something that should be addressed in schools far more than it is. Regarding the point made, I think the ideal is that when we put people first, we are putting G-d first as well, because G-d wants us to treat each other with respect. Sure, there are cases where it seems as though the two directions are completely dichotomous and those must be dealt with by each specific situation and with as much sensitivity as possible. However I want to further your point by saying that - and I do not remember the source for this I am sorry- if a person sins between man and G-d, he has only one sin. But if he sins against his fellow man, he has two sins- one against G-d as well as one against man. I also learned that the reason the Flood was brought to destroy all of mankind during the time of Noach was because of sins between man and his fellow man. Up until this point G-d was able to tolerate all the idolatry, and so to speak be “mochel on his kavod”. But when it came to his children hurting each other, He had no tolerance for that. (Age 21)
Regarding this idea of man to his fellow man, can we not say that the way we dress may affect others around us? Wearing just underwear in the middle of time square may cause some people around us discomfort. Or wearing a bright red miniskirt to Yeshiva may cause the Rabbis to feel uncomfortable. Or wearing jeans and t-shirt to your best friends wedding may cause her insult that you did not take the time to dress properly for her special day. Could we not say then, that we need to take others’ sensitivities into account when dressing? If I know it is difficult for men to concentrate or focus on what I am saying because of the way I am dressed then maybe I should reconsider this outfit. If I know that my mom hates the color blue, then why wear it around her...even if she is practically everywhere I am?
It’s a tricky issue I think; yes we should certainly dress with regards to others sensitivities, but at the same time there needs to be a line drawn- one shouldn’t have to wear only specific colors because this color offends someone in his or her class, someone on the street, etc. You can’t please everyone. And if you attempt to, you will likely end up missing a very important person- yourself.
Well said!
So where is the line between dressing for yourself and dressing to ‘respect’, ‘be sensitive’ to others?
Wow! I know I have no right to say what I would have done in such a case, because I was not there but..... Honestly I would try my hardest to speak up and say something. “Yes I learned that too, but I also believe that...” and the fact that our religion would say such horrible sounding things would not make anyone convert, so there must have clearly been a misinterpretation on the girls part. If there are people that fully convert to Judaism, not for marriage, then there would not be such teachings. I agree and cringe with the many stories I have experienced with seminary returnees but I never felt the need to not be Jewish...I just stated that there are many sides to a story...I twist their words a bit, I explain what they mean a little more clearer.
But back to shul...does it make a difference if you attend a different shul, like if you were staying at a friend for Shabbos? No one knows you or your parents there. Or if you go to a shabbaton...so there is no association with you to your friend and their family.
Would it make a difference if everyone at the beach wearing bathing suits were fat and ugly and you were the only good looking one?
No, it wouldn’t make a difference at all. The point isn’t if I look good or not, the point is that it’s socially acceptable therefore not uncomfortable.
Why would you not wear mini-skirts to a job interview? Why then would you wear one to school?
School is not the same setting as a job interview. A job interview is a specific opportunity to make an impression and obtain a position at the company; I’m not trying to get a job while I’m at school. If it’s a relaxed environment at the office, then I will wear mini-skirts after I have obtained the job.
Quick story that explains what I’m talking about: at my current office, I saw a man come in for an interview in nice slacks, button down shirt and a tie. My office is extremely casual; my boss wears jeans every day. But my co-worker who interviewed this guy told me later that he is definitely not going to give him the job because the guy wasn’t wearing a suit. He was dressed completely appropriately for an office, but he just wasn’t in a suit. When I pointed out that my co-worker was wearing shorts and a t-shirt, he replied “I have a job. He doesn’t. You wear a suit to a job interview.” So it doesn’t matter if I like mini-skirts; you have to make a good impression at a job interview and dressing appropriately for an office is part of that.
I hear that....it is like any interview...Israel school interviews they all know that is not how we normally dress and we are just dressing the part to get the “job” but why is that considered acceptable?
I can’t tell you why it’s considered acceptable, only that society insists that we do it. It’s simply become appropriate in both our secular and religious cultures. Perhaps it is different in other parts of the world, but that’s how it is in Western societies.
Maybe it’s because they want to see what sort of effort we are putting in to show what we want to become. A girl who doesn’t ever want to cover her legs with stockings lets say is not likely to dress up in them to impress a school that has a hashkafa she is not interested in. But when a girl comes dressed a certain way for an israel interview, maybe it is an expression of her hope to grow, an indicator of maybe how she wants to be a few years down the road. Food for thought. (Age 21)
Historians have noted that among Arian Germans only, Natzies were “very advanced” ethically in that ideologies such as women’s rights already existed more so than in other countries, however in Natzie Germany, it was socially acceptable to kill Jews, Blacks, Jypsies, and other minority groups. In every society and generation socially acceptable practices drastically change which screams out the enormous need for people to follow an ethical code that is fixed and un-wavering in the face of changing or even criminal societies. Only a code of laws given to us by G-od can provide such un-subjective ethical stability. Therefore modesty for a religious woman has absolutely nothing to do with social norms but has to do with the laws that were passed down to us from generation to generation all the way back from Moses who received a code of laws from G-d called the Torah. This principle goes beyond modesty and holds true in all areas of life, instructing us how to be ethical people. If a person always allowed his own judment or that of society to dictate to himself what is acceptable, then he is not following a fixed ethical code, and as a result principles will change from one setting to the next, or from one generation to the next. In contrast, when following the ethical code that is taught from Jewish Torah sources, then the laws of modesty are more stead-fast and un-wavering. A woman who complys by the latter and as a result looks different than everybody else on the beach (because she’s dressed in the same long sleeves and long skirt that she would wear on a street) should be proud of herself because 1. She will be rewarded for adhering to the laws of modesty of the Torah especially where it is harder to do so. G-od does not let any righteous act go un-rewarded. 2. She knows she is being consistent and following the commandments of G-od which by definition allow for a more spiritual existance here on earth, and allows us to get closer to G-od and to figuring out our mission. 3.She is helping to make the world a better place and following holy laws intended to prevent unsolicited sex. 4. By covering her body she is conveying the message that she is more than just a body, i.e. that she has a soul underneith, a small piece of G-odliness. (Age 27)
Nicely said, but what about certain issues that were never addressed because they were not invented yet: “jeggings”, colors besides red, nailpolish, high heels, KiKiRiKis, these issues are relevent only to our generation, just like I am sure previous generations had their issues (hair coverings, short sleeves, etc.). These issues need to be addressed by rabbis of the modern world today, but also by women themselves, I believe, because women are the ones dressing in such a fashion. Yes, we get a reward for listenting and keeping with our ethical codes, but I also believe, Hashem would want us dressing this way for our own reasons, making it more personal- and this way, more women are able to keep to the laws better. You can see that today’s generation is drastically different than previous ones and that is because we are looking to answer the “why”. As you can also see, many Jews are no longer keeping laws of Judaism, because “their mommy told them so”, they need to know why. So I am asking, reward aside, why do we have these laws? Does Hashem really care how we dress? what about how we act when we are dressed that way...see stories in Your Thoughts and Say What??
Interesting point on the idea of hair coverings, I learned in class that when sheitels first came around, they were considered inappropriate in many groups, but they later ended up gaining acceptance. It’s difficult because there is often a faint line between halacha and custom...
If you are concerned about your parents’ shame in shul then shouldn’t we care about our Father in Heaven’s shame? Or does He not care about the way we dress...maybe He only cares about how we speak and act...is the way we dress part of the way we act?
I am probably not the best person to talk about this with because although I understand what you’re saying, I personally don’t care as much as you do. I’m a firm believer in putting people before G-d (and that G-d prefers it that way), so I concern myself with bringing honor to my family before bringing it to Him. I have complete respect for those who disagree with me and I’m not trying to offend anyone who does. I simply just want to explain my thought processes.
I agree that the way we dress is part of the way we act and that true modesty involves all aspects of our actions. Someone posted a story a little further down that actually happened to me and I think it demonstrates my points here: in my first semester at college, I took a class with two girls who had just come back from seminary. I didn’t know them from before college but befriended them because we Jews tend to stick together. One day, I overheard them talking to two boys in the class, one of whom it seemed had grown up religious but was not any more and the other was half-Jewish. I say I overheard them, but they were talking so loudly it was impossible not to; the whole class heard them loud and clear. The things they were saying were so horrible, things that make sense to someone who understands our religion and culture but to an outsider (like most of our classmates) are extremely offensive. They kept going on and on and it was awful. I was wearing a knee-length skirt that day and I was so embarrassed that I might be associated with these incredibly naive and offensive girls, that I pushed my skirt between my legs so it looked like I was wearing pants. That day, I would have rather been called a slut by those girls than a Jew by the rest of my class. They made me so embarrassed to be Jewish and they made such a chillul Hashem. That is why I believe that modesty and bringing respect and honor to G-d is so much more than simply what you’re wearing.
I remember when you told me that story and I definitely see your point regarding how much of a Chillul Hashem can be made when people attempt to “put G-d before people”. It hurts me so much as well when I see people behaving in that manner, and I really think it is something that should be addressed in schools far more than it is. Regarding the point made, I think the ideal is that when we put people first, we are putting G-d first as well, because G-d wants us to treat each other with respect. Sure, there are cases where it seems as though the two directions are completely dichotomous and those must be dealt with by each specific situation and with as much sensitivity as possible. However I want to further your point by saying that - and I do not remember the source for this I am sorry- if a person sins between man and G-d, he has only one sin. But if he sins against his fellow man, he has two sins- one against G-d as well as one against man. I also learned that the reason the Flood was brought to destroy all of mankind during the time of Noach was because of sins between man and his fellow man. Up until this point G-d was able to tolerate all the idolatry, and so to speak be “mochel on his kavod”. But when it came to his children hurting each other, He had no tolerance for that. (Age 21)
Regarding this idea of man to his fellow man, can we not say that the way we dress may affect others around us? Wearing just underwear in the middle of time square may cause some people around us discomfort. Or wearing a bright red miniskirt to Yeshiva may cause the Rabbis to feel uncomfortable. Or wearing jeans and t-shirt to your best friends wedding may cause her insult that you did not take the time to dress properly for her special day. Could we not say then, that we need to take others’ sensitivities into account when dressing? If I know it is difficult for men to concentrate or focus on what I am saying because of the way I am dressed then maybe I should reconsider this outfit. If I know that my mom hates the color blue, then why wear it around her...even if she is practically everywhere I am?
It’s a tricky issue I think; yes we should certainly dress with regards to others sensitivities, but at the same time there needs to be a line drawn- one shouldn’t have to wear only specific colors because this color offends someone in his or her class, someone on the street, etc. You can’t please everyone. And if you attempt to, you will likely end up missing a very important person- yourself.
Well said!
So where is the line between dressing for yourself and dressing to ‘respect’, ‘be sensitive’ to others?
Wow! I know I have no right to say what I would have done in such a case, because I was not there but..... Honestly I would try my hardest to speak up and say something. “Yes I learned that too, but I also believe that...” and the fact that our religion would say such horrible sounding things would not make anyone convert, so there must have clearly been a misinterpretation on the girls part. If there are people that fully convert to Judaism, not for marriage, then there would not be such teachings. I agree and cringe with the many stories I have experienced with seminary returnees but I never felt the need to not be Jewish...I just stated that there are many sides to a story...I twist their words a bit, I explain what they mean a little more clearer.
But back to shul...does it make a difference if you attend a different shul, like if you were staying at a friend for Shabbos? No one knows you or your parents there. Or if you go to a shabbaton...so there is no association with you to your friend and their family.